Indian and American Education System: a comparison - III

This is second part of my questionnaire, you can read earlier part 1 and part 2 for a background. Here we will consider remaining questions and their answers.

[ In the next post, I will use all these answers in designing my own education institution, along with a proposal of an education system based on liberal-arts set up.]

4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare Physics group in India (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

My Summary:

Teaching styles are a matter of appropriate training and experience of faculty. In general, faculty in US is better trained, with more incentives. Faculty are active in research and bring their research problems to their classes, providing first-hand access for students to research problems. Profs bring in their own experience and knowledge beyond books, courses therefore carry more weight.

The exams are rigorous and students put in a lot of effort for their grades. Students are treated with respect and trust, which students return. If students ask questions, point out flaws, it is appreciated. Student feedback is taken seriously, and provides vital input to teaching methodology and efforts. This is all done concious

The support staff is excellent too. Moreover, there is very little paper pushing and delay due to administrative overhead, bane of Indian system.

Facilities are many-folds better than India, of course, that comes with appropriate investments. Technology is ubiquitous, and is put to a good use. Everyone answers emails within 24 hours.

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5) how were the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

While some courses depended only on the Profs self made notes and experience, others depended on books. Course activities range from assignments, seminars to projects; these elements are flexible. Prof decides to hold an exam or otherwise, and which elements weigh how much. Usually course assignments were weekly, carry a lot of weight and can not be copied. They also kept students up to date on material taught.

Courses are generally well structured, with a mix of both theory and application. Class interaction is very much encouraged (read summary of earlier question above). Lab work and exercises are an important part of the syllabus.

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6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

My summary:

Professors are open to dialogue and discussions are encouraged. Students are expected to ask questions and discuss with profs. Classes were not compulsory, but material was taught in such a good manner that classroom interaction was valued very highly.

There is a lot of emphasis on self work.: reading background stuff, latest research etc Students take their homework and assignments seriously. There is no copying unlike in India. In fact, given research-based assignments, it is hard to google and find answers. Any copy attempts is dealt with severely.

Peer grading enabled students not only to evaluate other submissions but also to appreciate different ways of solving the same problem. Some of the courses had project components that were entirely student evaluated.


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7) if you had to remodel Indian system, would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

My summary:

1. Reduce class sizes (hire more faculty)
2. Increase electives and choices for students (less rigid pattern of education)
3. Encourage faculty research, make them connect students with their work.
4. Let faculty decide courses' learning goals, teaching and grading methodologies.
   
5. Faculty performance review, sincere student feedback.
   
6. Thorough teaching, flexible grading and strict compliance of anti-copy rules.
7. Make courses more experience/ research oriented (not theory only)
8. Respect students, encourage academic discussions in classroom and outside, and make their life easier with less admin overheads.
9. Introduce TA system, encourage peer learning inside and outside the classroom.
   

Read replies yourself for more.



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--AN--

4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare Indian Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

I took three courses, the faculty for which were as follows :

Professor A : Very bookish, used to put up lecture notes *and* then write almost exactly the same stuff on the blackboard, very little attempt at intuitive teaching. :(

Professor B : New prof from MIT, teaching a course for the first time, enthusiastic, and tried to be helpful, but was kind of erratic - didn't explain some topics well. Nevertheless, this course was enjoyable as a whole.

Professor C : The prof. who adopted the real-world kind of teaching approach I described earlier. Very good, the only complaint I had was, he graded horribly in a class of 20..still I believe that is mostly irrelevant

Now I guess almost all of these could be found in any other research group. One thing I did *not* find (sadly) was an improvement in *everyone's* teaching styles. So I guess that shows that as far as taught courses are concerned, the teaching has quirks almost everywhere.

As regards labs, there is little I can say, as the facilities here are far more numerous than any we had in India (not necessarily more advanced, only more opportunity to use them) As regards support staff, they are excellent here, and there is little of the paper-pushing and forms in triplicate mentality that seems to pervade a lot of the administrative thinking at xxxx.

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

Aside from working in a lab, I didn't have any labs per se this semester. One of our courses contained a final project instead of a final exam, and it tested us quite a bit on the material covered, while managing to remain interesting.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

The part which I found was slightly different from India (I'm assuming that expectations such as a proper understanding of theory, etc. are common factors everywhere) was that student-professor interaction was expected to be at a far higher level than usual. The office hours (chamber consultation hours) were expected to be used to the fullest.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

One of the things I mentioned, and would like to mention again, is that the system at xxxx, consisting of assignments timed at 15-day intervals at max, seemed to work out better for me. Here, there is a weekly system of homeworks for almost each course, and if you take 3 theory-intensive courses (as I did this sem) it is a struggle to keep it going, leaving less time to actually ponder over the theory.

Now, as regards ideas if I had to remodel xxxx, I might do the following :

- Reduce class size, and increase the number of courses that can be taken as electives. As I mentioned earlier, EE student who are sure about their future work probably might not need to take things like MechSol, or even, say, Principles of Management for that matter (our final exam of PoM was a joke due to some people copying rampantly). Unless it is absolutely essential to the fundamental nature of the degree, it should be the student's choice whether he/she wants to take it or not.

- Increase collaboration with other colleges in the area as regards projects, research, etc. I have seen some stellar projects during Quark made by people from GEC. Also, apparently (according to Axxx) we have MoUs with universities all the way upto MIT which allow exchange programs, etc. which have never been used. These could be used to their fullest extent.

- (Slightly controversial, but decided to mention it anyway :p) Stop expanding immediately. Until xxxx campus has been raised to the level of xxxx in terms of all research groups, increasing number of campuses will only serve to widen the perceived disparity between the campuses, and will ultimately lead to isolation of the graduates of these campuses as of a distinct level from xxxx Pxxxxx. (Thankfully that did not happen for our batch during MS admissions.)

if you don't mind, i would like to know about these issues from your other friends and colleagues (from xxxx or elsewhere in India). can you forward this email?

I will try to ask interested people and then forward it to them. That being said, there are very few people who are genuinely interested in furthering education in India as such,
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--NI--

4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

The xxxx Physics Group is probably still among the best set of people I have interacted with. One thing different here is the ubiquitous use of technology. Professors and staff alike usually answer email immediately, (worst case within 24 hours) and are very open and encouraging. Feedback provided by students is very serious - there are rating for each instructor for each course. This provides a good way to check the quality of teaching, as a consistently low performance must be acted upon. It also provides teachers an opportunity to refine their approach. Again this is online and anonymous.

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

Grad courses are usually very project heavy, while undergrad ones will have a little more emphasis on exams. On an average, CMU courses will have 35-40% project, 15-20% labs/assignments and the rest for exams. What matters most - that depends on an individual as to what he/she is looking to learn. For a single individual, it might be different from course to course. I am focussing on learning various tools, techniques and softwares that I might use anywhere in the future.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

Yes very much so. Class interaction is very much encouraged. Grad students will have a lot of emphasis on self work. Reading background stuff, latest research etc.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

1) Frequent reviews of syllabus to keep content state-of-the-art.

2) More flexibilities

3) Review of performance of faculty.

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--NC--


4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare xxxx Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

The faculty was, in general, very good. The thing I liked was the emphasis on rigor in theory, followed up by exercises that gave a taste of practical applications. I believe this approach would greatly enhance the approach of teaching at xxxx, which is already at a good level.

Also, I think some of the courses at xxxx (this is with regard to my experience of courses in EE) would have been better served if the exams were more challenging, with a commensurate leniency in grading, as opposed to general run-of-the-mill questions with stricter grading. Open-book tests at xxxx were a concept that I greatly admired, though in my later years, many courses did not have this component.

At Georgia Tech, we had a weekly seminar in the DSP Group, where a Professor or PhD student would explain an aspect of their ongoing research. This was helpful in giving students an idea of the cutting-edge research going on and also gave them an insight into what a particular Professor was working on. I guess maybe having something similar at xxxx would help in giving students an idea of whom they can talk to regarding taking up projects such as a COP/LOP/SOP.

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

As I mentioned during my answers to the previous questions, the courses were generally well structured, with a mix of both theory and application, which was reflected in the exercises/assignments and exams. I think the xxxx system is also very good with respect to the continuous evaluation, as opposed to one final exam carrying all the weightage in terms of grades; however, I think a assignments/HW component in the courses at xxxx would be something to consider - perhaps we could have 2 midterms, assignments and a Comprehensive Exam instead of the 3 midterms and Compre.

A project component in the courses was also something that appealed to me and could be something to consider too, in courses where it would be feasible.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

Students were expected to turn in good efforts on the HW assignments, following which (in some subjects) there was peer grading. This enabled the students not only to evaluate other submissions but also to appreciate different ways of solving the same problem. Some of the courses had project components that were entirely student evaluated. Also, the Professors always welcomed insights on various problems from students and were open to dialogue discussing topics more in depth than was covered in the class. Thus, students learned from both the Professor and each other, and this fostered deeper and quicker understanding of subject matter.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

I think I will glean some points from my answers to your other questions for this one, as I already mentioned some of my thoughts with regard to improving xxxx in those questions.

- Having more HW assignments, well spaced throughout the semester, is beneficial as one is constantly kept on one's toes and challenged to go beyond what is covered in the lectures.
- Giving a real-world feel to the course, through challenging assignments or exam questions will be beneficial in expanding the student's understanding of the course and bridging the gap between theory and practice to an extent. In my field, as in many others, MATLAB simulations are an excellent way of doing this.
- Making exams more challenging, while not putting undue stress on students about their grade. As I said, perhaps a few questions on an exam can be out-of-the-way, forcing students to apply their minds.
- Encouraging student discussion and dialogue to enhance understanding of the subject. Maybe having a weekly seminar wherein students take turns in giving talks about various topics can be an idea to think about. I know some student groups, including our Astronomy Club at xxxx, incorporated this, but it can also be a feature of senior-level courses undertaken in the 4th year. Students can be exposed to research papers and literature surveys, which would benefit them should they choose to go to graduate school.

Having said all this, I believe the curriculum at xxxx is definitely one of its strong points, together with the concept of continuous evaluation. Many colleges elsewhere in India do not have these strong points. Also, the idea of xxxxxxx School to give relevant industry experience is a big plus. All in all, I believe xxxx has a great system, which can of course be evaluated and improved to be up-to-date and rigorous.

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--AD--


4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare xxxx Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

The main difference between the faculty that I saw here and in xxxx (not necessarily the Physics group, since I have not taken many courses with professors in this group) was that all the professors here are actively involved in research. If xxxx could invest more on research, it would go a long way in bridging the gap between Indian and the American education system.

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

The labs and exercises are an important part of the syllabus. It's through these that I did most of my studying. Doing the homeworks and labs sincerely removed the need to study for tests later on as we understood all the content while working on the exercises. There's absolutely no rote learning here and that's the thing that mattered to me the most. Another important part of most courses is the class project, where students are encouraged to work on something new and interesting. Projects proved to be a very good learning experience.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

Yes, the classrooms are very interactive and informal and students are encouraged to participate in it. The more questions we ask and more discussions we have, the more we all learn.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

I think that xxxx is in a much better place than most other academic institutions in India. With a few changes, it would be as good as the American ones. The main change I would make is more emphasis on research by faculty and hence getting students more interested in research. The second thing would be to change the curriculum so that it emphasizes less on rote learning but focuses more on applying concepts to practical situations through relevant lab work and home work.

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--OP--

4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare xxxx Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

I have not interacted with the Physics Group here at all.

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

The striking difference between Indian universities and the ones here w.r.t student activity in a class comes in the assignments. Assignments are taken very seriously here irrespective of the weightage they have , somehow...no one copies, everyone attempts and works it out on their own. In India (even in xxxx), just because its not an exam, assignments are taken v liberally. People copy without guilt and the one or two bright ones are more than happy to share their work.The assignments here are very well designed to enhance the learning process. Especially for the graduate courses, I have observed that at least 50% of a course's learning takes place through solving the assignments.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

Not completely sure what you are referring to, but students are generally expected to contribute to the research being pursued by the professors of their department. Students make very solid, hands on contributions. Sometimes, the Professor vaguely proposes an idea, its the student who makes a detailed design and implements it. But then again, I guess I'm speaking only about graduate students.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

a. Make the university more research oriented. Thoroughly involve students in the research.

b. Make the grading system tougher. I got away with As in a bunch of courses where I learnt very little. This really reduces the motivation to learn (esp in xxx --- India --- where there are tons of exciting things to do instead of studying).

(I can see a 19 yr old xxxxx relaxing in a xxxx lawn thoroughly disappointed at her future self suggesting something so horrendous, "How did I turn into you?" she asks!)

I do not know how to give the suggestion of Assignments, because even if very challenging ones were assigned, I would not know how to inculcate the culture of spending time on them and honestly attempting them.

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--IM--

4) how was faculty and support staff? can you compare xxxx Physics group (i know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? we were a good group, i believe. we can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and i would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

It does not matter how many degrees the professor has earned and we can never really compare. Each professor has a varied approach, there is every kind of professor some extremely knowlegable, some who have earned degrees but not very student-friendly to work with. On the whole, what I think is the difference between the faculty here and faculty in xxxx is that, every professor here is very very actively working on a bunch of projects wheras in xxxx not all of them are involved in continuing research activity or atleast the students are not given a chance to participate in their research. It is of great help for the students to work with professors and real-time projects. Most of the professors here are associated with companies and real-time projects which is just not the case in xxxx

5) how was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? how did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

Syllabus as i have mentioned involves in assignments and projects very very frequently( this can be the case with only georgia tech because tech is considered to be very toughest and time-consuming). The students are always given a chance to participate in the professors research and use it as a class project as well. Also, the quality of projects are quite different. As I did in xxx, most of them in the class google it and get almost the same answer just tweak a little. But here the projects are modules of new ideas which cannot be googled, we might just get an idea from google(which also is mostly not). They also make sure that the disciplinary code is very very strict which ensures students dont copy. It is very easy to copy in xxxx. These projects here happened to help me quite a lot. It gives you a hang of the concept.

6) what was expected from students ? learning is a 2-way street, i believe, did you find something similar?

Not much difference in this aspect, according to me.

7) if you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

Change the entire course curriculum to include more practical implementations and more programming.

I would love to see the professors having tight-relations with companies and I would expect the professors to be in continuous learning phase so that they can come up with interesting projects and suggest students about the various opportunities and areas to learn and grow in. The students will have to be given a chance to work with the professors on these real-time projects, participate in conferences and be actively involved in the present happenings in their field of study.

I guess this is what I have observed from one semester that I have spent here. I began to love this system now (though a lot of cribbing goes on and on everyday). Hopefully, this helps education level in xxxx to raise. It is very nice of you to take time to analyze the weaknesses and possible improvements to the Indian Education System as a whole and particularly in xxxx

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--KA--

4) How was faculty and support staff? can you compare xxxx Physics group (I know this bunch the best) with one you saw there? We were a good group, I believe. We can improve hugely in terms of our approach, and I would like to know if you can point out the fault lines... Again, i would ask you to stress less on equipment (automated robots or moving screens) than approach, but do write about the over all thing.

4. As mentioned before, I believe the 'approach' is important. Students trust teachers, when teachers themselves trust their courses and subjects. When a teacher loves what he is teaching (and more importantly effectively communicates this fact) then a student loves the course too. Here teachers are liberal, easy; a student can leave the class when he wants to, ask AS many questions as he wants to (without fear that he will be snubbed or ridiculed), submit an assignment a day late if he has a valid excuse, and so on. Teachers here are more like friends (like you were to us, but like almost no other Prof at xxxx - India- is) and understood and most importantly RESPECTED students. I believe that is the most important thing which lacks at xxxx (India). Students are treated like thieves and thugs and almost all of us will agree to that. Working in a lab late (even if on a student's own project) should be easy and not so bureaucratic like India. It is then we will see real innovation. After lab hours in PHY123 ("Harvard"), I would sit with some undergrads in the lab who were working on developing a new protocol for the iPods. In a few days they did it, and even presented some papers on that.

In terms of knowledge base, the faculty here was definitely MUCH MUCH better than that India. I say that because the course came out of papers, of the "other" knowledge of Profs and not out of books. Profs would start with stories about what they'd done in their UGs, bring those papers to share with us, to show the real innovation outside classrooms. Discussions were encouraged immensely. And most importantly, these Professors prepare before coming to the class, unlike most of the ones at xxxx (India) I studied under. I wouldn't want to name them, but even the best of the Profs did so many mistakes in the class.

Just between you and me, as an example, Prof. xxxx knew nothing about what she was teaching. When I used to point out her mistakes (in a not-so subtle way) she'd get so irked. She threw me out of her class once for acting "over smart." I lost all the will to come to the class anymore or even learn the subject. I could have taught the course better than her! Of course I made an A in the course, but the whole experience left me very bitter. If the same case had happened here (which did) the Profs are so understanding of their mistakes, and say sorry a million times, to actually make the student feel sorry for pointing it out (in a nice sort of way!) That helps because the next time the student is eager to learn more out of the course from the same Professor. The exact same thing that happened between Prof. xxxx (India), happened between me and Prof. yyyy (Man) or Prof zzzzz (Woman, both in India) to name some.

5) How was the syllabus and student activities (exercises, labs, seminars, research)? How did it make a difference, what exactly mattered to you the most?

5. Each course had its own structure. While some depended only on the Profs self made notes and experience, others depended on books. Almost always we didn't even have a prescribed text book (which I found unnerving initially!) but which worked better in the end because we focused more on what was going in the class room. Some courses are seminar courses too, but I didn't take any of them. Almost each course has weekly or bi-weekly HWs, and some of them had final take home exams too. One of them had a midterm group presentation and a final paper to be written. HWs since cannot be copied (unlike India) had to be done (they carried a huge percentage) and since they covered everything taught till that week, updated every student with what happened in the course till that date. The final projects were VERY intensive and often we didn't sleep for days! Also, please notice the file attached (I believe you've seen this before though.) This is a reply from the Prof for our midterm presentation. Such customized replies went to 12 other groups. This Prof. is perhaps the most famous professor in her field existing today and yet she put in the time and effort to do this. This is what impresses us as students; the Prof putting in as much work as the students (you did so for us in MT1 lab too.)

6) What was expected from students? Learning is a 2-way street, I believe, did you find something similar?

6. Students were expected to ask questions, lots of questions! The class was like a chatter box and students who didn't ask questions were mostly the ones who were asked questions BY the Professor. It kept us on our toes! Everyone was expected to attend the classes (and everyone did) because unless you attended the class you wouldn't get anything out of the slides, and you wouldn't be able to do your HWs. There was no compulsory attendance though. Also to make students attend the classes, the teachers did not compromise by giving questions from what is taught in class, but by teaching so, that the student would HAVE to attend the class. No surprise quizzes (which I personally believe didn't serve a single purpose in xxxx (india) since I never attended them and got A's in most of my courses.) and even if there were quizzes they were not "marked." Imagine getting all the quiz papers and the Prof. right then and there picking up them, not mentioning the name of the students who wrote them, and discussing what was wrong or right in their approaches. That way the topic was discussed then and there with students "actually" learning rather than caring more about their marks.

7) If you had to remodel xxxx, what would you do? Detail 2 things of your own (more if you have time).

7. Whoa. xxxx Would go topsy-turvy then.
a) Introduce TAs who are available to take a weekly "session" to review what was done in the class and answer students' queries. All students learn differently. Some are comfortable in a classroom setting with the Prof, others in a classroom setting with another student teaching them, and yet others who like to be alone while discussing questions. Introducing such students who are half way between a Prof and a student would be a very wise idea.
b) Introduce a MUCH stronger and centralized feedback system for Profs and courses. Students get to rate them back on various fields and that keeps the Profs on their toes. This also helps students decide on a particular elective course for the next semester.
c) Go easy on students. Respect them because they are because of who your institution runs. There are legitimate problems sometimes, and that needs to be understood. Each of them is different, and learns differently. I can remember so so so many instances of teachers shouting at students for no mistake of theirs. Stop that, there are other ways to tell them that they are wrong.
d) Focus on research. Make publishing at least one paper in an international journal mandatory. If we as students could publish papers only by our own work, then our Profs should too. That's how we will respect them too.
e) Get a larger non-teaching staff and delegate the administrative work to them. Teachers are already loaded with work and courses; this would give them more time to do research too.
f) Update the courses and not just the course text-books. Take ideas, information from the latest papers, discuss them with students.
g) In continuation, fascinate the students by giving hands-on demonstrations (if possible), reading excerpts out of papers (even if 50 years old!), talk about personalities who've existed in the area (for example Tesla, when teaching Magnetic fields!) and so on. Make it fun!
h) Pay more to the faculty. The reasons are understandable; better faculty, better …
i) Make the academic/other procedures for students a little bit more easier. It shouldn't be a pain to take a leave; the students are grown ups, or to simply audit a course or take an elective!